gb_lindsey: (loki)
[personal profile] gb_lindsey
A few years ago, while wandering through Borders (RIP, darling), I came across a book from a writer I'd never heard of before, the cover art of which induced me to lift it off the shelf and take a closer look. The blurb on the back was equally awesome: Sci-fi, futuristic, with a fascinating apocalyptic premise. I bought it then and there, took it home, and read.

And was sorely disappointed.

Not because the premise wasn't what it was cracked up to be. It was. Not because the story itself wasn't intriguing. It was. Not because the research wasn't sound. I'm sure it was.

I was disappointed because the writing let me down.

Now, plot development and characterization aside, I feel there is a distinct importance to the way a story is technically told. In the case of the above book, the problem lay in overt cliche and bland phrasing and word choice, but on a much more bare-bones front, grammar, spelling, and punctuation are also incredibly important. I fear this necessity is being overlooked more and more these days, especially in this age of immediate internet publication (i.e., start a blog/website, post, and tada! Written work!) And I have no problem with netspeak or e.e.cummingsing it up because I will be the first to agree: it's easier. Faster. Takes less effort and still usually gets the basic point across. When I'm texting on my phone, for instance, I don't usually stop to capitalize or punctuate everything, and I use numbers in place of letters with the best of them. I cut corners.

Let there be a caveat, however: How much would you, a reader, trust an author if he or she couldn't properly spell as many as three words in a thousand-word article?

Let's take the unofficially published stuff out of the equation for a moment. I have been in the middle of a fantastic hardback novel only to be confronted by spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, repetitive wording, incorrect punctuation or the ever-popular mistaken homonym (their/there/they're, etc, thanks a lot, spell-check). And there is no faster way to make me immediately start questioning the author's expertise and dedication, and therefore, the reasons why I should even be reading said book.

I have a life, time I'd like to use wisely and profitably. Things to do and lots of books on my to-read list. So maybe this nitpicky-ness makes me a snob, but then again, why should it? I feel the phrase actually being sought here is "having certain standards".

Becaaaauuuuuse... let's take that caveat and change it from "article" to "medical article". Starts putting things into perspective, doesn't it? I certainly would wonder about a doctor who can't even be bothered to put his or her work through a proper edit, and the reason is this: you can have the most interesting subject, the soundest research, the best story in the world, but if you cannot convey it comprehensively to a reader, that gem will be lost. Maybe not entirely, but in some way, some part of it will disappear.

There are amazing stories out there. Amazing. Not just published, but written all over the web, in fanfic, in blogs, in journals, in parody, on news sites... Everywhere. So many of them suffer, however, from the author's inability, or (and much worse) unwillingness to convey the essence of what he or she is writing.

The internet gives us an incredible connection to people of different countries, languages and backgrounds. It's an aspect I treasure, and I understand that there will be differences and mistakes and misunderstandings, that not all people write in the same language or style and that this is the reason for most of the miscommunication on this front. I'm not asking for some universal language requirement, and I'm certainly not asking people to tailor their writing for an 'English speaking world' or whatever the heck. I just want to stress the importance of knowing how to convey a story technically as well as artfully, especially if you want to publish it for the world at large, because it is a damn shame when something so beautiful loses its potency because of spelling errors and inattention to detail.

Thoughts?

Date: 2012-05-15 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-nightfox.livejournal.com
Lord to I have to agree on this. I can start reading something with a wonderful premise and have it ruined quickly by shoddy editing or a poor writing style. In my opinion there are some very famous writers who churn out wonderful stories but whose style of writing is something I just can't deal with. In those cases, I actually prefer their work to be translated into some other type of medium, like a play or a movie.

In the case of online, amateur writers I can overlook some serious SPaG issues simply because they are in fact amateurs. I find it unforgivable in professionally published work. Continuity is another pet peeve of mine. It's your own story I shouldn't be able to remember the details better than you can! Now back to amateur writers. I will only put up with those grammar and style issues if they strive to improve over time. Some do, some don't. Those who do, I often stick with their works because they know how to tell a story and are just working on improving their grasp of the mechanics of writing. Those who never improve, I consider too lazy to bother and so I drop them as soon as it becomes apparent that they have no interest in getting better. If you can't be invested in your own work, why should I be? (On this note, I have a friend who has the most wonderful story telling ability but an atrocious grasp of SPaG. I've been working with him now for several months on improving and the process is slow but it is working because he wants it to.)

Now to the issue of professional articles. I am by profession, a psychiatric RN working toward the certification to become a Nurse Legal Consultant. Not only would I not trust a medical professional who can't be bothered to have an article checked over by someone before publication but if said professional's records ever come before a jury, they are going to be judged quite harshly and quite negatively for these shortcomings. They could, in real time, be the most brilliant practitioner out there but they will come off as incompetent if their professional records are sloppy, incoherent and riddled with SPaG errors.

Date: 2012-05-16 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
I love it when I pick up a series and can actually see the author improving as I go along. Each book gets better and better in terms of style and tone, the way ideas are put forth and the manner in which characters are developed. It's a treat and it brings a smile to my face. Not to mention the fact that I'm much more likely to pick up another one of their books!

You bring up an excellent point about the legal ramifications of unedited published work. Especially in this day and age, when you can't be sure who is watching/reading/getting ready to comment. Incompetence can bleed over from so many directions... It's hard to keep track of them all, but also very necessary if one wishes to come across as poised and knowledgeable about a subject. The negative implications stick so much more firmly in people's minds...

I'm sooooo guilty of that

Date: 2012-05-16 03:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] christine marie burkhart (from livejournal.com)
Which makes me ask, have you been reading my blog? But that's part of the magic of these things. You can put down whatever you like and hit submit before you chicken out. And chickening out is definitely something that would come up if you edited your work too much.

That said, who doesn't at least write their first draft in Word to make sure everything is spelled right? I do. So at least I am sure I should feel no shame for my spelling.

It'll be interesting to see what the future definition of "literacy" will be when so much can be published so easily without scrutiny, and when so little is read because tl;dr is a good enough excuse to tune out what others are saying.

Re: I'm sooooo guilty of that

Date: 2012-05-16 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
Haha, nope, wasn't you. And you're right, that's the beauty of a blog: you CAN write whatever you want to write. It's its own type of free expression, without all the expected confines of publishing/writing.

You bring up another good point: who does in fact run their work through the spell check before posting? I'm glad lj has a spell check function built in, because it catches things I miss.

We need to explore the 'future definition of literacy' question in more detail. More blog posts! More blog posts!

Re: I'm sooooo guilty of that

Date: 2012-05-16 05:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] christine marie burkhart (from livejournal.com)
Agreed. In some ways there is no longer a justifiable excuse since I've found that Google Chrome and Firefox both have built in spell check features. Even beyond LJ, if a person has a problem with spelling, face up to it and switch browsers. I love that aspect of Google/FF as sometimes it's not so much that I can't spell, but that I type so fast that my fingers muddle up the order of the letters. In other words, spell check also helps cover me when I'm being a crap typist.

I figure I will do a blog post. I've often thought that I should do a rant on tl;dr... after all, when a reader drops out on you before they can even get to the first comma splice, you got an issue.

Is your work poor? Or has twitter/wiki/FB/etc. etc. lead humanity down a path of textbyte dependence. If you can't get the information in 100 characters or less, it's not worth knowing. That's even worse than writing for news, where you had to keep the most salient points confined in the first two or three paragraphs, since the vast majority of readers wouldn't read past the first hundred words or so.

All together, the question becomes who is our audience? What sort of demographics can we actually expect from readers, especially if we are trying to self-promote using blogs and social networking sites? And how much SHOULD the writer cater to the txtspk generation? Are we willing to give up accuracy and length simply to appease minds that are growing far too used to brevity and instant information gratification? Will writing necessarily HAVE to become a mixed media form just to keep the interest of readers? It's a lot to think about.

Re: I'm sooooo guilty of that

Date: 2012-05-19 06:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
It's a lot to think about, particularly the idea of a push toward mixed media. It's like going back to picture books in some cases, but now it involves moving pictures: film, animation, that type of thing. Books coming along with audio and video files, CDs and DVDs sold in the book jacket... I don't have a problem with that, as I like the idea of re-visualizing different types of art, but it does make you wonder whatever happened to the importance of one's own imagination, and whether or not that's becoming a lost art of its own.

Date: 2012-05-16 09:16 pm (UTC)
ext_407600: harry (Default)
From: [identity profile] leemarchais.livejournal.com
I agree. I've read a lot of drek that's been published and wonder 'where the hell is the imagination'? I get that there are things to watch out for: wordiness, mixing metaphors, things like that. But I'm very pro-author understanding grammar and making it work *for* them, not against them. I also am tired of picking up books that have been translated from British English to American English because there oh such a difference in the language. Okay anyway... but I also have some strange aversion to reading stories that are clearly taking place in America but the author chooses to write like they're British. Possibly a former fandom author, who knows. I think maintaining the voice of the characters is important. I started reading Fifty Shades of Grey and just about gave it up, but if I didn't have a thing about finishing them just to learn what NOT to do... I'd delete it from my kindle immediately.

If I read that someone heart beat a tattoo on someone's chest one more time, I might scream. Ugh. I'm moving backwards. Instead of reading more modern things, I am going back and reading classic literature. It's really scary how the market is so saturated with books that really wouldn't pass muster with many critics.

Date: 2012-05-19 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
I'm very pro-author understanding grammar and making it work *for* them, not against them.

I agree completely. Well said.

Heh, on the English front, I also agree: I get a little eyebrow-archy when I see that The Chronicles of Narnia and Harry Potter are being rewritten for American kids... Because I think kids can be trusted a little more to ask questions or go find out the answers themselves, but even if they don't, it exposes them to other manners of thought and expression, which is good in and of itself. BUT. I also get that weird frown when I see something obviously set in the US but written in UK English, and vice versa. It's a notable disconnect for me in terms of reading versus writing.

But cliched phrasing? Yeah, better not to use it if you can help it. It just has little to no evocative power. Makes me itch to edit while I read, and I'm beginning to dislike that feeling...

Date: 2012-05-20 11:05 am (UTC)
ext_407600: harry (Default)
From: [identity profile] leemarchais.livejournal.com
Now, having said that, I now have to add that if a British author is trying to write in American colloquialisms, someone should read just for that sort of thing.

I'm giving Fifty-Shades a chance because I feel there is something you can learn from anything, and while I've been reading it, I noticed a lot of Briticisms. It's not usual for Americans to use phrases like bedside table and keen... other things stick out as well, but then I found out the author was from England and thought perhaps she should have based it there rather than choosing America, where we are sometimes literally speaking different languages. Certain classes have a much more formal register than the chavs and other classes. It's been interesting to see so much has crpet through when Harry Potter had been gone through with such a finel-toothed comb.

It makes me wonder - and he's very much on my list of authors to read more of his works - if Neil Gaiman still writes in BrE or AmE, licing in the states.

Yes, i have my own pet-peeves, and yes, often edit as I read. I recognise that there is a big thing for brevity; however, sometimes you can't say something and stirr emotions without taking an exra step sometimes. Or perhaps that's just me, being that I only feel what I'm writing once, then it's gone. I feel it during the writing process itself - picture Joan Wilder in Roamncing the Stone, I reckon, for reference. LOL Sad but funny example.

I wish translation wasn't needed. If it's that big of an issue, tack a bloody appendix or glossary or whatever with the book. I'm sure that has to be easier than changing EVERY spelling element that differents from ours. It seems disingenuine and I wish that we were allowed the choice. If it's British and takes place in England, I want to read motorways, petrol stations, colloquial phrases - especially with places like Yorkshire and Cornwall (where it's practically another language, I'm told).

The difference in punctuation differences are mild, but it's not like half the kids coming out of high school know actual english grammar any more. In the girls' home I work at, I read the paper she had been working on about Estonia and was appalled at how poorly constructed it was. Not just the word choice and redundant syntax, but for lack of any imagination or effort on her part. I was deducted so many points on things in classes that were English in college for using passive voice. So I learned. I studied grammar and punctuation with a massive obsession and it's what led me beta reading in the first place. The desire to know when I'm making a mess of it and why. Also how best to use those bits that are taken for granted to get my point across without being unable to understand why I'd done it. I probably couldn't do it now, but at least in that course, I had to parse sentences and break down every single underlying layer and explain it. It gave me a new appreciation for *why* we have those structures.

I have impossibly high standards as a reader, and as a writer. I think that the former gets me into more trouble than the latter. LOL I end up wishing I could forget all I know and just write sometimes. It takes me three times as long to write as it used to - I think so much about what the words are and how the sentence reads. It's a strange feeling.

I'm very glad to hear that you are branching out and thinking of going the original fiction route. I've always felt you were a talented author and have been moved and inspired not just by your stories but by the way you present them.

thank you for that extra effort, as it were. :) You're one of the writers who I always coe back to, the familiarity, the ease and flow and depth. I love it. Those are things which lack in modern publishing.

Date: 2012-05-21 06:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
I think it all boils down to convincingly placing your story and your characters. I've been trying to figure out why I have such a disconnect when, as you've described, someone is writing a story set in one country with the colloquialisms and language of another. And the thing is, the placement of setting is everywhere in writing, not just in describing the actual room and the items in it. It's certainly all about the language a character or an author chooses. It would be very hard to convince me a story is set in the American Deep South, for instance, if the characters are all using phrases like "bloody hell" and "jolly good" and "see you in a tick". Even more so, if the author is describing cars as having "boots" or people using "rubbers" to erase things, that's an even greater disconnect from the setting. And it can lead to all kinds of things, including assumptions about the point of the story itself: so, are these people actually in an alternate reality, brought here by dark, scary villains who are now observing their every move???

Which, if you are trying to write a romance about Jenny falling back in love with her high school sweetheart, would make things difficult. An extreme example, I know, but the point is, the narrator has become unreliable to me and thus I start reevaluating my initial assumptions about the book, because I would try to first assume the author knows what he/she is doing.

I'm finding this exploration to be fairly enjoyable right now, as I'm fiddling with a series of stories told from the POV of two central characters, one of whom is British, the other American. When I'm writing from the Brit's POV, I tend to gravitate toward words he might use, as contrasted to writing from the American's POV. But that's a choice in narrative voice, too, to give it a feel of being somewhat in that particular character's mind. I don't know if it will work, or what effect the approach is having. But it's a neat exercise.

I'll say this of the American school system: grammar has gone waaaaaaay to the back burner. The class in my high school was canceled the second year I was there, for example, and even before that, it was offered for only a quarter, not the whole year or even a semester. For whatever reason, it's been deemed unimportant enough to put funding towards, and that's disappointing when I see so many intelligent people in other fields who cannot seem to compose a grammatically correct sentence. Because people notice incorrect things so much more viscerally than correct things, so those problems stick out and follow a person.

Thank YOU for your compliments on my writing. I very much appreciate them, and you for following me over here to the original fiction side of my activities. ♥

Date: 2012-05-22 04:52 am (UTC)
ext_407600: harry (Default)
From: [identity profile] leemarchais.livejournal.com
Oh, yeah. First time I read The Business of Saving Souls, I think I was gutted and drained for a few days after. Loved that. Makes me want to pod-fic it, too... LOL

I think you've said very well my feelings on the subject.

I hope that your experiment works out well. It's definitely taking the hat off and walking in another's shoes, as it were.

Yes, grammar has taken a sad back-burner. And to think at one time I wanted to teach. Now, I've decided on other things. I'm happier that I didn't go with teaching. I know a lot about grammar and such, but there's no way I want to try to make someone else understand it when already have problems articulating myself sometimes. LOL

Date: 2012-05-25 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
Thank you so much! That's a personal favorite of mine...

For me, and because of the fact that school doesn't emphasize it, I learned a lot of my grammar and punctuation through osmosis: reading, reading, reading, all over the board, noting patterns and applying them, testing them out to see what was actually correct. And then I had to go back and take a class, and put names to all these rules I already knew but couldn't convey very well because I didn't know what it was all called. I just knew what looked and sounded right.

Date: 2012-05-26 08:21 am (UTC)
ext_407600: harry (Default)
From: [identity profile] leemarchais.livejournal.com
I used to have a wicked affair with over-using commas. I'm much better now. lol

I wish I were good at maths. Grammar just makes sense to me in a way numbers don't.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2012-05-19 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
Oh JEEZ. Yes. Making sure you can trust the people you are working with, ahaha! Can you imagine the work that had to be redone? Can you tweet or message me the author's name? I'd like to know more about this!
(deleted comment)

Date: 2012-05-21 06:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
That is just... *faceplant* I can't even.

Fantasy and sci-fi are particularly tough, I imagine. The ideal situation would be to have the author sitting right there interacting with the editing process. But the thing is, it's pretty obvious the editor in question wasn't really paying attention to the text, the story, the plot... I haven't read CJ Cherryh's work, but I'm willing to assume she builds worlds well, as she's so popular with so many readers. ^_^ Which inevitably leads me to wonder what exactly the editor was doing that he/she didn't bother giving that certain leeway in world building, especially in terms of an alien or fantastical world. Just imagine what Dune would have been like if the editor had started nixing strange words like "Fremen" and the misuse of "spice", or not trying to figure out why there was such a thing as a Bene Gesserit witch in a world that is clearly so unlike ours on the surface.

Date: 2012-05-17 06:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nenne.livejournal.com
I admit that if the language and grammar and spelling and punctuation and all is not up to minimum level of proficiency, I start questioning the contents as well.

I'm a research scientist and I read technical reports weekly written by people with so poor language skills that it is difficult to even understand their message to the reader, but they don't want tips or advice on how to improve. They seem to consider SPaG completely uninteresting. *shakes head*

Date: 2012-05-19 06:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gb-lindsey.livejournal.com
It's hard not to question everything when you are questioning the basics, right? I think of it as a foundation, and if it's wobbly, it totally upsets the balance of the rest of it in my mind. And maybe the rest eventually makes up for the imbalance, but most of the time, it doesn't and I'm left feeling unfulfilled.

I wish people who asked for editing would respond to the teaching type of editing, but so many people don't. I've had to fight with people over the fact that I won't just go through and change their work.

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